K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew [fix is in]

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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:05 pm

ZR1000A1 wrote:I noticed, some dealerships sell a few low mileage(2K-5K miles) K1300S on eBay. Does BMW try to resell the stalling bikes they had to buy back?


The dealers are getting rid of there demo bikes plus some dealers have taken in trade on stalling K bikes. With the economy in the dumps not many high end bikes are selling right now. So I would guess that you very well could be seeing bikes that have been stalling on eBay, whether some are owned by BMW is a good question .

You would think that BMW has had plenty of time to fix the software now.

It too bad we have not heard from others if there are having success from the cleaning.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby SHIVA on Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:21 pm

as a rule a manufacturer is not in the retail business and relies on dealers to move bikes. so a bike brand can't actually sell directly to the consumer, unless they have retail license in certain states. basically the process of retailing motorcycles falls to the dealers for most brands and I think this is true for BMW as well.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby pakyohmeca on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:06 am

Had my bike in for the throttle plates cleaning about two weeks ago. Third bike that week for this dealer. I have put on just a little over 400 miles since the cleaning and not one stall yet. The SM showed me the plates before they cleaned them. Quite cruddy. My initial stalling problem did not occur until I had 4600 miles on the bike. I am just over 13K now and starting new. I am on a strict diet of "Top Tier" fuels and additives at every fillup.

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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Ed F K on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:44 am

Anyone have any pics of cruddy throttle plates/bodies?

Or the next time someone has them cleaned, can you pls take a pic and post?

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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby SZGT on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:03 am

I've been dealing with the stalling issue since 06. I spoke with a tech in california this week who said that an aftermarket exhaust would fix the problem. And that he would not recommend a power-commander because of all the computer systems already on the bike.

Way too easy to be true, right? Has anybody with the stalling problem put on an aftermarket pipe and found that it solves the problem?

Or is this another goose chase?
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Mirage_ZA on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:16 am

SZGT wrote:I've been dealing with the stalling issue since 06. I spoke with a tech in california this week who said that an aftermarket exhaust would fix the problem. And that he would not recommend a power-commander because of all the computer systems already on the bike.

Way too easy to be true, right? Has anybody with the stalling problem put on an aftermarket pipe and found that it solves the problem?

Or is this another goose chase?

He is talking rubbish - aftermarket pipe makes motor run leaner, so it is even easier to stall. Power Commander should improve fueling but I am not too sure if it really helps with stalling if something else is possibly faulty on the bike (airbox, O2 sensor etc etc).
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby DivideOverflow on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:27 am

The powercommander removes your O2 sensor from service. It forces the bike to run off the "default" ecu map, and then the powercommander modifies your fueling through whichever map you load on it. Ideally, you want to get the bike dyno tuned by an competent operator, because every bike is different, and the amount of fuel needed varies by mods, ecu versions, etc, is different.

I haven't heard of anyone having the stalling problem once they moved over to the PCIII. That leads me to believe the problem with the bikes lies in the O2 sensor loop portion of the BMW mapping (at slow speeds, O2 sensor feedback controls the amount of fuel). Or the PCIII is able to cover up whatever problem is there with more fuel. Either way, most people that have it are happy. My problem is I don't trust BMW service one bit, and would want to retain my bike's warranty. With the problems I have, I don't trust them enough if something goes wrong, that they wouldn't blame it on the PCIII and deny my claim.

An aftermarket exhaust by itself won't help at all... With a slip on exhaust, your bike should technically be able to adapt if you reset the ECU and TPS, because it isn't a terribly large difference. A full system drastically changes the air/fuel ratio, and you need some kind of device to alter the fuel maps.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Mirage_ZA on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:54 am

DivideOverflow wrote: That leads me to believe the problem with the bikes lies in the O2 sensor loop portion of the BMW mapping (at slow speeds, O2 sensor feedback controls the amount of fuel). Or the PCIII is able to cover up whatever problem is there with more fuel.


Well...yes and no.
In my case, after I have disconnected O2 sensor, stalling has stopped but IIRC, your bike was still stalling after same action.
Do you perhaps have an explanation ?
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:10 pm

Mirage_ZA wrote:
SZGT wrote:I've been dealing with the stalling issue since 06. I spoke with a tech in california this week who said that an aftermarket exhaust would fix the problem. And that he would not recommend a power-commander because of all the computer systems already on the bike.

Way too easy to be true, right? Has anybody with the stalling problem put on an aftermarket pipe and found that it solves the problem?

Or is this another goose chase?

He is talking rubbish - aftermarket pipe makes motor run leaner, so it is even easier to stall. Power Commander should improve fueling but I am not too sure if it really helps with stalling if something else is possibly faulty on the bike (airbox, O2 sensor etc etc).


The O2 sensor and ECU idle circuit will do it's best to keep the A/F ratio the same. If you have an 06 bike you should install a PC3 on it and not worry about what BMW is going to say. If you have a motor problem it will not be the fault of the PC3 and you can remove it. BTW the bike run better with out the stock exhaust but I'm not saying it will fix you stalling problems. Once you get a PC3 installed never never again let BMW upgrade the mapping.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby DivideOverflow on Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:08 pm

Mirage_ZA wrote:
DivideOverflow wrote: That leads me to believe the problem with the bikes lies in the O2 sensor loop portion of the BMW mapping (at slow speeds, O2 sensor feedback controls the amount of fuel). Or the PCIII is able to cover up whatever problem is there with more fuel.


Well...yes and no.
In my case, after I have disconnected O2 sensor, stalling has stopped but IIRC, your bike was still stalling after same action.
Do you perhaps have an explanation ?


I never disconnected the O2. And jewilson, I have an 08, so I am worrying about BMW. I wanted to give them the chance to fix this, since it is completely unacceptable for bikes of this price to perform so poorly.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:42 pm

DivideOverflow wrote:
Mirage_ZA wrote:
DivideOverflow wrote: That leads me to believe the problem with the bikes lies in the O2 sensor loop portion of the BMW mapping (at slow speeds, O2 sensor feedback controls the amount of fuel). Or the PCIII is able to cover up whatever problem is there with more fuel.


Well...yes and no.
In my case, after I have disconnected O2 sensor, stalling has stopped but IIRC, your bike was still stalling after same action.
Do you perhaps have an explanation ?


I never disconnected the O2. And jewilson, I have an 08, so I am worrying about BMW. I wanted to give them the chance to fix this, since it is completely unacceptable for bikes of this price to perform so poorly.


I would think that you could get the dealer to install a PC3 so everything would be cool. My dealer was very cool about the fact that I was running a Rapid Bike 3 on the 05 K1200S I had. The dealer were going to clean the TB on some K1200s/r that were stalling I never heard if that was successful or not. You might consider just disconnecting the O2 sensor the reset the tps, the connection is under the gas tank and just leave the 02 sensor in place. I heard from several guys that it fixed there problem. But if you're waiting for BMW to make the bike run perfect, don't hold you're breath.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:48 am

Would BMW Sales Staling used bikes YES Read this

One of the sharpest areas of controversy in American law concerns the duties owed by product manufacturers to consumers. For people injured by a defective product or negligent behavior by a producer, a big court award is often the best hope for compensation. Such awards, however, can also have devastating consequences for a business, especially when it must pay punitive damages. These are damages paid to punish a business for past conduct and to prevent similar conduct in the future. They stand apart from compensatory damages, which are designed to compensate an individual for an actual loss. Since the early 1980s state legislatures had wrestled with the question of how to reform the tort system generally and the role of punitive damages in particular. It was in this context that BMW reached the Supreme Court.

The case involved a Birmingham, Alabama, oncologist, Dr. Ira Gore, Jr. He had paid $40,750 for a black BMW 535si only to discover nine months later that his supposedly “new“ car had been damaged in transit and then repainted by BMW. The company had never disclosed to Gore that the car had been repainted, a practice common in the automobile business and one regulated in many states by a provision that only if the repair amounted to more than 3 percent of the value of the car did the company have a duty to disclose. The cost of the paint job was $601. Gore, however, claimed that BMW had breached its contract with him and committed a fraud in the process. A trial court agreed and awarded Gore $4,000 in compensatory damages and $4 million in punitive damages. The jury set the punitive damage figure based on evidence that BMW had sold nearly 1,000 such refinished cars in the United States. The Alabama Supreme Court heard the case on appeal, upheld the verdict, but cut the punitive damage award in half, to $2 million.

A divided United States Supreme Court found in favor of BMW. The company had argued before the justices that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment rendered such punitive damage awards unconstitutional as “grossly excessive“ in relation to the state of Alabama's legitimate interests in punishing unlawful conduct and preventing a repetition of it. Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the majority, agreed. Stevens and the majority were reacting to skyrocketing punitive damage awards and the windfalls they brought to plaintiffs who had not suffered serious injury. Stevens cited not only the Due Process Clause but also what he termed elementary notions of fairness that formed the fabric of the Constitution in siding with the company. Stevens also concluded that it was inappropriate for the Alabama courts to take account of conduct by BMW elsewhere in the country as a basis upon which to calculate punitive damages. Hence, Alabama courts could consider only the economic interests of Alabama consumers in making decisions about damages. Stevens also observed that the three most important indicators of the appropriateness of a punitive damage award were not met. In this instance, BMW's conduct was not reprehensible, the punitive damages and compensatory damages were entirely out of balance, and there was a huge gap between how BMW would have been punished for comparable conduct under criminal law. Stevens, however, refused to draw a bright line designating the point at which such damages became excessive, and he remanded the case back to Alabama. In essence, the Court had set a standard not unlike that associated with obscenity: they knew it when they saw it.

The dissenters, led by Justices Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, insisted that the majority's decision undermined the historic role of the states in dealing with punitive damages. Such decisions, they concluded, were better left to state legislatures than to the Supreme Court. As important, Scalia concluded that the Court's opinion actually offered no guidance to legislatures about what would be constitutionally acceptable and, therefore, threatened to throw the entire tort reform effort into chaos.

BMW was in some ways a victory for business, since it placed some judicial limits on punitive damage awards as a constitutional matter. Yet the decision hardly did away with punitive damages. The decision did spur efforts in Congress to pass tort reform legislation, especially in the area of consumer products and punitive damages. President Bill Clinton, however, ended up vetoing a proposed statute that would have allowed punitive damages only if there was “clear and convincing evidence“ that a defendant had been guilty of “conscious, flagrant indifference“ to the rights or safety of others. Clinton, urged on by trial lawyers' organizations, did so in the belief that the legitimate problems of ordinary people should not be sacrificed to get rid of frivolous lawsuits. In the states, the tort reform effort continued to grind away, although BMW now hangs over it in a not altogether informative way.
Last edited by jewilson on Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Mirage_ZA on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:54 am

DivideOverflow wrote:
Mirage_ZA wrote:
DivideOverflow wrote: That leads me to believe the problem with the bikes lies in the O2 sensor loop portion of the BMW mapping (at slow speeds, O2 sensor feedback controls the amount of fuel). Or the PCIII is able to cover up whatever problem is there with more fuel.


Well...yes and no.
In my case, after I have disconnected O2 sensor, stalling has stopped but IIRC, your bike was still stalling after same action.
Do you perhaps have an explanation ?


I never disconnected the O2. And jewilson, I have an 08, so I am worrying about BMW. I wanted to give them the chance to fix this, since it is completely unacceptable for bikes of this price to perform so poorly.

Sorry - this thread is too long, it was someone else then. My sensor is disconnected and stalling has stopped.
Ask dealer to do it and ride it for a week, see how it goes.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Ed F K on Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:31 pm

For the K13S, any possibility that the high oil consumption could be related to the cruddy throttle bodies, that in turn could be related to the stalling?

I know, I know, not all K13S bikes that consume a high amount of oil, stall.

But, there could a variety of other inter-related factors causing stalling to happen, or not happen. For example, riding style.

Some rev in upper ranges a lot, while others do not. A rider that revs in upper range may burn off what would be cruddy deposits.

While a lower revving rider, may be more likely for deposits to accumulate.

Also fuel quality does vary and could be another contributing, but perhaps, secondary factor.

So, what do you guys think?
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Videoguy on Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:44 am

I wish I could say for sure, but at first I kind of babied the bike, as per the break in rules, and didn't really wind it out too much. Also used "cheap" gas like Chevron, Hess, etc. Had the stalling so severe that It would stall 6 or 7 times in an hour, or EVERY time I chopped the throttle from 3000 rpm. Had the fix done, a TON of crud in there, been using ONLY Shell super, adding 5 oz of Techron concentrate to every tankful and have routinely hit 9 or 10k rpm on a regular basis, and haven't had a stall in over 350 miles. And that 350 miles is about 6 or 7 hours of riding. A lot of 35 or 45 mph marked corners. I can't say which or what combination of variables has kept the stalls away, but I can say that the cleaning and ECU reset IMMEDIATELY resolved the stalling. I hope it stays that way, but I guess only time will tell.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby kerch57 on Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:51 pm

So is the TB cleaning only for the 1300s that stall or is it also meant for the 1200s that stall. I've always used shell super and mine use to stall but since Jamie's reconmendation of the 13.2 update no more stalling. Just was wondering if it starts to stall again will BMW do the cleaning for me. Hmmmmmmmmm I bet not. well without a charge.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:13 pm

kerch57 wrote:So is the TB cleaning only for the 1300s that stall or is it also meant for the 1200s that stall. I've always used shell super and mine use to stall but since Jamie's reconmendation of the 13.2 update no more stalling. Just was wondering if it starts to stall again will BMW do the cleaning for me. Hmmmmmmmmm I bet not. well without a charge.


Are you talking about a air fuel ratio 13.2 otherwise that makes no sense. I bet you could get the TB cleaned for you k12s/r.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:20 pm

jewilson wrote:
kerch57 wrote:So is the TB cleaning only for the 1300s that stall or is it also meant for the 1200s that stall. I've always used shell super and mine use to stall but since Jamie's reconmendation of the 13.2 update no more stalling. Just was wondering if it starts to stall again will BMW do the cleaning for me. Hmmmmmmmmm I bet not. well without a charge.


Are you talking about a air fuel ratio 13.2 otherwise that makes no sense. I bet you could get the TB cleaned for you k12s/r.



Ed FK

The stalling is not caused by the way people are riding style..........I had had a K1200s and a R1 with no problems running the same fuel. Of course if you read through the thread even BMW test riders have found the bike stalling on them. There are several components at least related to this problem and its not the riders.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Ed F K on Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:08 pm

jewilson wrote:The stalling is not caused by the way people are riding style..........I had had a K1200s and a R1 with no problems running the same fuel. Of course if you read through the thread even BMW test riders have found the bike stalling on them. There are several components at least related to this problem and its not the riders.


Understand... but what about a combination of factors, with perhaps one of the primary ones being excessive engine oil injection/lubrication?

Or, and this may seem unlikely, but could the engine be running too rich at certain RPM ranges clogging up the TBs? (Especially since the K12 are known to run a bit lean.)

It still seems very unlikely that the cause is poor fuel.

What is causing the TBs to get dirty? Something appears to be over-compensating... too rich, too much oil... etc. TBs don't just get dirty.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:28 pm

The motor does not inject oil into the combustion chamber.......The only way for oil to get in the combustion chamber is leaking valve seals and on the passed the piston rings if there are not seal from breaking in the motor correctly. But that oil is not blown burnt with the gas not blown out through the throttle bodies.

The lube as was not cleaned out during motor assembly by BMW.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby Ed F K on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:18 pm

Jim, Respectivefully, I'm with you... but...

...Many experienced riders on this site have broken-in the K13 correctly, and they're still consuming oil (especially when compared to typical K12 engines not consuming oil). Where is the K13 oil going?

And ok, if it is lube at assembly... clean it once, and forget it. Why is Techron needed on a going forward basis? And we should not see more posts about newly assembled bikes having this problem... because I assume BMW has change the assembly process to not get lube in the TBs any more.

It's still kinda puzzling... and quite frankly, preventing me from buying a K13 at this stage. I need more of an explanation from BMW to at least explain the oil consumption, and that the stalling issue has a permanent fix. And my guess is there are probably a lot of other folks who are waiting for this to play out too.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby zx9rmal on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:47 pm

I have a FULL Akra system and it did not help the stalling. Also, my bike consumes NO oil.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby jewilson on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:01 pm

Ed F K wrote:Jim, Respectivefully, I'm with you... but...

...Many experienced riders on this site have broken-in the K13 correctly, and they're still consuming oil (especially when compared to typical K12 engines not consuming oil). Where is the K13 oil going?

And ok, if it is lube at assembly... clean it once, and forget it. Why is Techron needed on a going forward basis? And we should not see more posts about newly assembled bikes having this problem... because I assume BMW has change the assembly process to not get lube in the TBs any more.

It's still kinda puzzling... and quite frankly, preventing me from buying a K13 at this stage. I need more of an explanation from BMW to at least explain the oil consumption, and that the stalling issue has a permanent fix. And my guess is there are probably a lot of other folks who are waiting for this to play out too.


Ed FK

These motors are strange my K1200S never used oil and I know other guys that there K bike used oil till 12K miles. The problem with oil usage is the cylinder coating is very hard and take longer to seat.

I've done 1000 miles since cleaning the TB but I've only added Techron once. I think it a BMW precaution, however I have been running Chevron or Shell gas.

My K1300S used 1/4 quart oil in the first 2K miles and has not used any since. I would blame it on the Nikasil cylinder coating and how BMW has applied it.

http://www.snowgoer.com/output.cfm?id=2027971
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/503 ... l-coating/
http://www.miatapower.com/engine-break-in.htm
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=452
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby dohc97 on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:56 pm

I added today also about 1/4 quart oil; my 1k1300s has 1,600 miles on it.

My bike also stalled twice today. Both were when the motor was still cold.
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Re: 08 K1200S & K1300S Stalling Crew

Postby beamertje on Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:40 pm

jewilson wrote:The motor does not inject oil into the combustion chamber.......The only way for oil to get in the combustion chamber is leaking valve seals and on the passed the piston rings if there are not seal from breaking in the motor correctly. But that oil is not blown burnt with the gas not blown out through the throttle bodies.


There is another way how oil can get into the trottle bodies.
I don't know if it has been mentioned before but the K1300 also has a secundairy airsystem which burns the gasses from the crankcase. There is a connection from the crankcase to the airfilter box and it is controlled by the secundairy air valve.
This air might contain all kinds of moistures like hydrocarbons, oil, water etc....
And that "stuff" then gets sucked into the trottlebodies.....
US bikes also have another "feature" which is called "tank venting" where the air from the tank is also fed back to the air filter box to be burned. Also this feature is controlled by venting valve...

These connections to the airfilterbox are probably unfiltered so that maybe how the throttlebodies get so dirty....
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